Curse

Orry · Feb 22, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

You want to steamroll through elite areas with a Mesmer playing a crucial role?

Actually, I think you've just proven the mesmer is balanced, mesmers can't steamroll elite areas, really, nothing should be able to steamroll elite areas.

drkn · Feb 22, 2010, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Mesmer build for hero? It depends on what I am trying to accomplish, mesmers in PvE can counter anything. You just have to know what you are up against.

Now if you are expecting a Mesmer to heal or blow sh!t up by spamming skills, you are picking the wrong class.

we're not talking about heroes.

Quote:

You want to steamroll through elite areas with a Mesmer playing a crucial role?

not even steamroll. just play at least one seemingly, noticeably useful role in the group. even paras have the imbagon that greatly reduces all incoming damage, even eles can abuse er to heal or could abuse of to tank or can use wards and aoe damaging snares for general support. now, something for mesmers, please.

edit, pasting Shriketalon's from another thread as probably it won't be seen:

Quote:

What prevents, say, Panic from sending the enemies running for the hills by switching them over to the flee state sometimes used by low level NPCs? What prevents an Elite Domination spell from turning an enemy into a temporary ally? What prevents an illusion spell like Wandering Eye from making a target hit both enemies and allies with AoE effects?

AI doesn't have a mind, but it DOES obey certain, written code. Why can't mesmers have skills that mess with the code?

Arkantos · Feb 22, 2010, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sorry, but as long as you don't enlighten the dark masses how they should play their mesmers in their current state, i don't take your words on it serious.

with cop? with vor? with a permasin balling up and keeping mobs?
with what?

There's no secret to it, you play it as you'd play any other profession. If you're trying to do damage, you take big damage skills. If you need to shut down an annoying enemy, you take a skill to do that. Cast and forget hexes like VoR, empathy and backfire can do good damage to off targets, killing annoying enemies and forcing enemy healers to heal more.

And as far as I remember, we mainly used esurge and VoR (pre nerf) in balanced builds without any 'main tanks'. I'm sure we've even screwed around with other elites too with no problems. Sure, it may not be as powerful as x, but that doesn't mean it's terrible.

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Talking like Anet now are we? Coming up with generalized, vague comments without anything to back yourself up. If you're so high and mighty above the rest of us retards, then please enlighten us on how exactly you would make a good mesmer build that "isn't complete shit".

Energy surge, cry of pain, empathy, backfire, rest are optional depending on what you're doing, really. Is it the best? No. Is it complete shit? Absolutely not.

You want another decent build that's pretty fun? this one.

PvE is such a joke that you can take random skills and put them on your bar and be decent at whatever you're doing.

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If you haven't noticed, there's a whole freaking profession out there, not just a few attribute lines, that's been sucking in PvE for 5 years. If all you could think of was buff other lines/professions that don't need the desperate/urgent attention that the mesmer needs, then I don't know what to say about your priorities. It's perfectly understandable that you can't tackle everything in one update (even if that update did take almost half a year), but it's not acceptable to leave glaringly obvious issues like the mesmer even further behind everyone else without even any sort of explanation or reassurance that they will be looked at anytime soon.

Again, mesmers don't absolutely suck in PvE. They're not the best for PvE, but that doesn't mean they're complete shit. The priories for PvE are being dealt with in this update (aka SF), they revamped a profession, and they revamped 3 attribute lines to be at least decent and different. For mesmers to be considered viable and good to the community, they need a huge revamp. If they got that revamp, I highly doubt they would have reworked ritualists and the other few attribute lines, or they would have and taken longer. Instead of tackling a huge task, they tackled minor ones in more quantity. In the stale state of PvE, I'd rather see some attribute lines from multiple professions reworked rather than just one profession. I can understand why you're angry, but understand that fixing multiple smaller problems > fixing one big problem for this update.

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Again, if you're so awesome at running uber builds in high end PvE, then please enlighten the rest of us how you would steamroll through elite areas with a mesmer playing a crucial role, and then we (or at least I) will stop whining about it once and for all. Keep in mind that it has to be able to do mesmer stuff in the class' current condition (in other words, do what the class was supposed to do and use your own attributes/skills) and not through abusing broken PvE skills.

Mesmers can't steamroll through elite areas, which is how it should be. Now, it's not as easy as just buffing mesmer skills and moving along. If you just give mesmers some overpowered skills then they're going to be superior to other professions, which is exactly what you don't want. You need to give it a lot of thought and testing to pull it off without screwing shit up. That's why they didn't rework mesmers this update, they didn't have the time.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 22, 2010, 05:53 AM // 05:53

does anyone know anything about mesmers here? mesmer "do" play a crucial role in PVE in all the teams that i play in with my mesmer friend. a mesmer can greatly exploit AI using Empathy and Backfire... if you haven;t heared, monster AI will wand themselves and cast themselves to death under backfire and empathy.

ever heard of diversion? signet of humility? how about tease?

i mean, mesmer heros are pro at interrupts, but even so, my friend can interrupt just as good as any dom mesmer in HA or GvG (well, maybe not as "good" just good enough for PVE).

i beleive the principles of a mesmer is in a different league to an ele or paragon. but in many varieties of cases, bringing the right skills for the right kind of shutdown is what a mesmer excels at. It helps the team steamroll, it just goes unnoticed a lot of the time. without tease or the crucial interrupt... there are many times we would be dead.

btw... paragons are pretty useless without their imbagon PVE skill abuse.

drkn · Feb 22, 2010, 06:10 AM // 06:10

@Trinity: so bring your friend here, please. we're tired of people talking crap while NOT playing mesmers themselves.

i still suggest to rework wiki about the mesmer, warn newcomers beforehand that it's certainly not a pve class.

Chocobo1 · Feb 22, 2010, 06:12 AM // 06:12

First the problem was heroes are going to spend all their energy removing cracked armor, now apparently heroes aren't going to do shit and leave you with -40? Make up your minds.

Del · Feb 22, 2010, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

@Trinity: so bring your friend here, please. we're tired of people talking crap while NOT playing mesmers themselves.

i still suggest to rework wiki about the mesmer, warn newcomers beforehand that it's certainly not a pve class.

wiki is user edited, do it yourself.

Neo Atomisk · Feb 22, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

What prevents, say, Panic from sending the enemies running for the hills by switching them over to the flee state sometimes used by low level NPCs? What prevents an Elite Domination spell from turning an enemy into a temporary ally? What prevents an illusion spell like Wandering Eye from making a target hit both enemies and allies with AoE effects?

AI doesn't have a mind, but it DOES obey certain, written code. Why can't mesmers have skills that mess with the code?

Genius. pure. genius.

zwei2stein · Feb 22, 2010, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Few notes from me:

* Yeti smash chance is a nerf in my eyes, loose all adrenaline will kill its usefulness and it is actually being used nowadays ...
* DBS buff is way too strong.

* Soul Twisting is important gimmick skill ...

* With exception of Deflect arrows, Charge, None Shall Pass tactics buffs are stupid. They have one think in common: They are flat "lets add imba" buff that require little skill to take advantage off, buttonsmashing is enough to get most of them.

* Focus on making defensive stances more .... defensive is worrying.

* On the other hand, blood buffs are fairly decent, however Demonic Flesh change is worrying and many skills could have been left alone as buff to them is unnecesary (Blood Renewal or Life Siphon). At least you have to think about team compostition and other skills you use to take advange of more interesting buffs.

* New focus on ritualist hexing is interesting, but why combine it with direct damage buffs?

* AR/SF change is welcome.

Quote:

What prevents, say, Panic from sending the enemies running for the hills by switching them over to the flee state sometimes used by low level NPCs? What prevents an Elite Domination spell from turning an enemy into a temporary ally? What prevents an illusion spell like Wandering Eye from making a target hit both enemies and allies with AoE effects?

AI doesn't have a mind, but it DOES obey certain, written code. Why can't mesmers have skills that mess with the code?

It is not fun when you loose control of you character and can just watch ai take over. It is not fun to have friendly fire. It is fine when dealing with AI, but ai is not the only thing those skills would be used on ...

That prevents any interesting mesmer skills from happening.

Shriketalon · Feb 22, 2010, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

It is not fun when you loose control of you character and can just watch ai take over. It is not fun to have friendly fire. It is fine when dealing with AI, but ai is not the only thing those skills would be used on ...

That prevents any interesting mesmer skills from happening.

Remember Madness Darts from Jokanur Diggings? They cause a minor amount of degen, but more importantly, send your screen into a psychotic fit. And they are technically a skill, an Environmental Skill with normal code. Likewise, AI-targeting skills (panic is an easy one, since only titan mesmer bosses use it, thus it doesn't hurt balance) could induce post-processing effects along with their debuff to make players act....shall we say "wonky", with no control locks needed.

Cuilan · Feb 22, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

Actually, I think you've just proven the mesmer is balanced

So how and why are the other professions continuing to get power creep while others aren't?

lishi · Feb 22, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Soldier fury, and aggressive refrain got hitted pretty hard aready with cons.
Why someone need to waste a skillslot when you can gobble down a candy?

Jk)Phoenix · Feb 22, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

the only important role that mesmer has in pve atm is to be the "VoR" Caller in DoA, but after the nerf of SF i'll be sure that some kind of...
tank --> aggro --> freeze/hex --> spike

will happens almost in all elite areas... so at least 1 spot for mesmer there will be everywhere, IMHO

btw also other classes got problems... look at eles, warriors and sins (well sins are gonna be fixed soon)

they are supposed to be:
ele = nuker,
warrior = tank,
sin = meat for MM

what we have?
sin = tank, runner, spiker, hexer, ecc ecc ecc
warrior = spiker? (100b)
ele = tank? (OF tank), support? (emo bonder)

and u still care about the mesmer? a char who should do... what? i'd say main classes needs a lil fix first...

Tenebrae · Feb 22, 2010, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I can understand why you're angry, but understand that fixing multiple smaller problems > fixing one big problem for this update.
You need to give it a lot of thought and testing to pull it off without screwing shit up. That's why they didn't rework mesmers this update, they didn't have the time.

This makes no sense at all dude. This is a "one big problem" fix update , SF , OF and 600/smite remember ? not multiple ones. I believe that is the cause why they didnt rework D , P , R and Mes PvE versions of some skills. Split is annoying but for god sake , at least Mes and D really need it , its hell obvious.

Once again , no one is asking for omgwtfpwn 3 button bar with ultraoverpowered skills for those classes but some recharges and effects NEED to be shortened/added to them . Even a half blind monkey would see it .... lets hope they do somethin in ..... 4 months ? lol .

QueenofDeath · Feb 22, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

PvE is such a joke that you can take random skills and put them on your bar and be decent at whatever you're doing.

I don't think it is a joke at all. I think it was well thought out to be able to do this for those that don't spend their lives playing this game. It makes it easy and simple to choose a build an individual enjoys without the no lifers screwing the game up for them by screaming balance balance balance all the time. I don't mind things being out of balance like this what I do mind is builds that can't be touched or so easy a cave man could play it namely SF, Obsi and 600 smite and even 55 monks. Get rid of the gimmick builds that have near 100% invulnerability at the least. Doesn't mean everything has to be balance though because they get rid of the easy elite farming builds.

Gargle Blaster · Feb 22, 2010, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

if you haven;t heared, monster AI will wand themselves and cast themselves to death under backfire and empathy.

ever heard of diversion? signet of humility? how about tease?

AI will NOT cast themselves to death with backfire(if their health is low they stop casting). Also, Empathy will sometimes stop monsters from attacking.

have you ever tried diversion in pve? Um, yeaha... shutdown is not an option in pve whrer your mobbed by crap monsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Primary mesmers aren't super amazing, but they aren't terrible if you know how do use them. Yes, they definitely deserve buffs for PvE, but people need to stop acting like they're complete shit.

--the best build for a PvE Mesmer is AP with PvE skills.

It's "not terrible"; but, where are the Mesmer skills in that bar?

Lopezus · Feb 22, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

It's not about about steamrolling pve for mesmers, it's just that in HM and high end pve mesmers skills are such subpar, beacuse they cost too much energy or have to long reacharge or most often both, that's why best mesmer elite for now is AP. So pve/pvp split for mesmers skills is necessery, lowering energy cost and reacharge wouln't make mesmers skill op or class to be really viable but at least make playing them more pleasing and meaningful.

pumpkin pie · Feb 22, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

not even steamroll. just play at least one seemingly, noticeably useful role in the group. even paras have the imbagon that greatly reduces all incoming damage, even eles can abuse er to heal or could abuse of to tank or can use wards and aoe damaging snares for general support. now, something for mesmers, please.

I don't think any class/profession should be able to steamroll any area lol, I also don't think mesmer are useless, its the whole gw community's idea of the mesmer that need to be change, because mesmer are very useful. I think they have sort of a passive role that always go unnoticed, even when they are doing their parts you wouldn't notice it. off couse some rework would be nice but mesmer are not as useless as you put it.

chessyang · Feb 22, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

George Bush Jr. was elected twice.

i agree! crazy ness!!!

The Josip · Feb 22, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

--the best build for a PvE Mesmer is AP with PvE skills.

It's "not terrible": but, where are the Mesmer skills in that bar?

We could put it this way: Power of a mesmer build is proportional to the number of non-mesmer skills in it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Energy surge, cry of pain, empathy, backfire, rest are optional depending on what you're doing, really. Is it the best? No.

Ok so you're basically saying that Mesmer is OK because it's inferior to everyone else, in everything it does.

I agree with you that mesmer isn't worthless, but this isn't a challenge thread but a skill balance thread. When something is inferior to everything else, then as far as skill balancing goes - 'crap' is the right word. Moreover, since most people play this game with heroes, those who use 2 mesmer heroes over 2 necro heroes will progress.. mmm 2x slower (I don't think im exaggerating here). Sorry but, word 'crap' gets more meaning here.

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If you just give mesmers some overpowered skills then they're going to be superior to other profession

It's interesting how in collective consciousness of GW playerbase it's ok if any other class is superior at one point in time... but the mesmer. In several years of gw pve, why shouldnt there be a time when mesmer will be slightly superior to everyone else?

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You need to give it a lot of thought and testing to pull it off without screwing shit up. That's why they didn't rework mesmers this update, they didn't have the time.

Arkantos, I think your mesmer should cast Shatter Delusions on you.

1. Several years is enough time
2. You're deluded when you think that ANet is interested in total balance. Do you think when they buffed SF that they thought this skill would be balanced? Hands up who instantly saw it that this skill would be blatantly overpowered.
3. Do you really think ANet accidently left SF untouched for such a long time.. while few mesmer skills were nerfed down (de-buffed) very fast?

Do I want balanced game? Yes. But that is not the goal of Anet. Since it's not, why should mesmer never get mesmer-only fast-casting bound super-overpowered skill? Would that improve the game? It would for me. If everyone else can have OP stuff, why should mesmers be sacrificed for holy balance? I'm nobody's bitc*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

You want to steamroll through elite areas with a Mesmer playing a crucial role?

LMAO

I really laughed on this one, ty. In one single sentence you captured what's wrong with the mentality of people regarding the mesmer class

Its incredible how being strong or even overpowered is acceptable in collective consciousness, but mesmers have to be on the level of "can do Northern Wall? Ok class is good".

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

we're not talking about heroes

Oh we are. We should. Do you know why? Everyone has heroes, not everyone has mesmer. Thanks to heroes you can see how hypocritical some of the people here are. Just check who uses which heroes, it shows the TRUE opinion best. In this forum, they will want mesmer to be their bitc*, but in the game, where it matters, they will use Rt's and necro, and paragons and what not. And guess what classes are getting buffed the most... Rt's and Necro oh yes.

What do you think Test Krewe members use in PvE? Warriors, Rts and Necros, or Mesmers? Right!